[S1E1] Jocelyn Brady: Hustle culture is killing us
So are lack of sleep and absolute certainty.
Blind spots, cognitive biases, and how to overcome them
Find out more about Jocelyn here
Transcript
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
The main reason that I have started this podcast is that I am so tired of hot tips and shortcuts and success stories that distract founders and marketers from deeper, more strategic work. Ironically, I went into this conversation with my guest hoping that I'll get easy, implementable in five minutes or less answers on how to make our brains behave, tolerate uncertainty, and help us get better results. And of course, as always, there are no easy answers. Before we begin, please meet today's guest, Jocelyn Brady.
Jocelyn Brady
Hello, I am Jocelyn Brady, the Brain Lady sometimes. What What am I, I am a writer, I work as a brain coach and narrative strategist. I'm obsessed with words and language and how they help us how they navigate and shape what we believe and how we perceive and how we behave.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Jocelyn is one of my favorite people to follow on social media. If you haven't seen her tiny tips, go ahead, check them out, we'll still be here. In addition to being a speaker, and a brain coach for consultants, and entrepreneurs, Jocelyn also works with founders, mostly on narrative strategy. And this can be a very interesting place to be in for a number of reasons.
Jocelyn Brady
I guess, the most experience I have working with startup founders is typically around narrative strategy. And I think that so you know, how to tell how to tell your story, how to pitch and all that stuff. And there's an interesting amount of, I think you have to have some, like hubris or something to be, it's, it's a crazy job to have. And you have to have so much confidence in yourself, or at least fake it. And it can be really off putting to a lot of people. And because that's, that's like, I gotta make this work. I'm gonna get funding, I will be out there. I feel like a lot of startup founders feel like they're, like frontman in a band, or like, the show the show runner? Kind of? Yeah.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Okay, but like, you kind of have to either have that confidence or project that confidence. And also, I feel like this comes with a lot of mental shortcuts that are unrecognized.
Jocelyn Brady
Mm hmm.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Is that something that comes up in your work?
Jocelyn Brady
Now, for sure, all of us have that problem, or it's just how brains work, right? Like brains want to, they want to have as much control and conserve as much energy as possible. So how do I... and that's why we have shortcuts. Because, you know, we're, it's really energy intensive to, to think and to make decisions and to, to make any kinds of changes, particularly. So that's why we have heuristics [as they are] called in behavioral science or cognitive biases, right? They're just like, well, I've done I've seen it like this before, or I've heard this story before. So go straight to that shortcut straight to over there. And we see how that's problematic. All over the world, in all kinds of scenarios. And as we can get really judgmental and short, sighted, racist, all kinds of things that aren't helpful. Yeah, and I think that there's, there's no one is immune to that. So I don't know if there's any more of that in say, startup founders. I see it a lot in the C-Suite. There's people who... and this is there's a lot of interesting science around this... the more power you get, the more likely you are to... your empathy reduces, you stop humanizing people the way that you otherwise might want to.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
There's also the dark side to conversations I have with founders are sometimes starting when they are very certain than they know the answers, and it's just like this last mile of execution that needs to happen.
Jocelyn Brady
Right.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
And in my experience, there is always something that's not known, that changes the picture to some extent. So if you were to give tips - brain tips - to founders like, Okay, you probably think you know this, but here are some things you need to do to give yourself a sanity check.
Jocelyn Brady
The first thing that comes to mind is my one of the things my dad always said, growing up as soon as you know what it is your dad just makes me think of if you feel super certain about something, you are much more vulnerable to collapse to being brittle to no longer learning and to the kind of hubris that can destroy your relationships and your business. So I think the main thing I would encourage is to practice curiosity, like try to find ways to flex remaining curious, instead of that, like, if you start to see or you're like, Well, I know that this is absolutely 1,000% this way, just be like, Hey, are you sure? Are there holes, we can poke in this? How might somebody else see this? Because you will be flexing more, you know, cognitive... you'll be seeing things from different perspectives, let alone that will open you up to see things that you might otherwise miss that could be damaging or fatal.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
I feel like there's no space for curiosity, if you're supposed to be on for 10 hours a day. And there's no space for play, which you talk about a lot.
Jocelyn Brady
Yeah, I mean, from what I see, the hustle culture is killing us. You know, I was just reading recently and him he, a friend of mine has a podcast where he had Jason Fried on from 37 Signals, he created Basecamp, all that, he they came in, I can't think of the co-writer, but they they wrote Rework and Remote, and something else that was along the lines of work doesn't have to be crazy. I love their ethos, because they're a really important message or counter message to those of us who are seeing so-called hustle culture and all that or thinking that that's the only way to do something. And these guys are like, No, take a nap, take a rest, turn off the computer. Nothing is emergent... emergency. Like we had we created startups, we know that it can be done this way. Shut up with all that BS around, you know, you have to be always on and you have to... work has to become your entire life and get it out. Get it out, get it out. It's like nothing good comes from working like that all the time. Right. It's like everything needs a rest, including you.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
What makes it so hard to hear that message.
Jocelyn Brady
Hmm, I think that's just like the play message. Right? A lot of people resist it. Like I don't need play. Because I'm serious. And I that's just for children you don't know you're talking about. And talking about shortcuts and biases, right? We get so certain that the way I'm doing it is the right way. Don't challenge me. Because if you challenge that you're challenging my identity and my whole sense of self and maybe my sense of self-worth and my whole existence might break. And then I think also, we get addicted to feeling productive. And that makes us feel like we're worth something especially in Western cultures. That we're told that [if you] work hard pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you're a productive member of society, and that's what makes you worth something. So if you are resting or giving yourself nourishment, sort of what is absolutely required as a biological being on Earth. There's this unease of like, oh, no, who's gonna look at me and who's watching who's going to think that I'm worthless because I'm not fit, fulfilling this mold of grinding.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Okay, so we're stuck on the productivity treadmill. We need to figure things out. And all the things we're trying to figure out are by definition unknowns because it's a startup
Jocelyn Brady
Right?
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Something exactly like that has never happened before. So How do I stop myself from defaulting to "Somebody on LinkedIn said, that's the way forward."
Jocelyn Brady
It's just like, please don't follow that one person on LinkedIn that says they know the way. Please don't do it,
I suspect that because we're, especially when you're exhausted or just like somebody, please just tell me how to do this. Oh, my God. And then we're like searching, searching, searching, searching. And then the brain sees something that's like, Well, that looks like certainty. They they look like they figured it out. I'm doing that. Yes. 100%. And please don't question that because I am tired. And I don't want to think anymore. Right. And so I don't know, I think it's just like, but going back to that remaining curious and just like, if you aren't comfortable with uncertainty, then maybe get out of the startup. And, yeah, anyway, I just like think that anybody who's like, this is absolutely the way to do something is super scary to me. It's like you, just as a generalization, like, all you have to do, you have to send out a newsletter every Tuesday. And it has to be at the same time. And you have to reply to 500 people a day. And you have to do this, you have to do it that way. That's the only way to run a business. Like, come on.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Yeah. Like my favorite thing on LinkedIn right now is frameworks, you know, like, messaging. Here you go. This, this is a framework, just fill it in, you're done. That's all of your pain points are going away, as long as you implement this easy thing. Yes, and also, so many things will go wrong, or can go wrong.
Jocelyn Brady
Yeah, that's a really good example. I was just bitching about frameworks. Because I have a couple that I use. And they're great, like, for certain things even have one called STORY framework, right? And it's like your S-T-O-R-Y, and you walk through, and it's one way to tell a story. But the whole thing is, there's never one way to tell a story, let alone to run a business. So with frameworks, I think it's that temptation to have, finally, somebody who's making sense of something, and it's super easy. But that's also a sign that if it's that easy, watch out. If it's that easy, why isn't everybody a billionaire, right? Or a million or whatever? Frameworks are helpful tools, they are not a guarantee in themselves.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
So of course, me being me, my next question is, okay, so how do I figure out when to apply this frameworks? Which frameworks do I apply? And how do I make it all work? Normally, a lot of folks in the B2B SaaS startup space would at least try to give a tl;dr version of this is how I do it. And you can too, or at least you could try. This is not where this conversation went.
Okay, so how? Well what I'm trying to get at is how do you use frameworks correctly? The way I'm going to ask is, how do you use the frameworks? Like how do you decide which one fits which one doesn't, and where it can potentially fall apart? Because execution is where things fall apart?
Jocelyn Brady
I think that's again, where it's kind of a hire somebody who is smarter in that area than you hire somebody who has the knowledge, like a consultant for the steps, because you can do a lot - and I think this is entrepreneurs and startups, like sometimes we feel we want to be really scrappy, and we want to do a lot of it ourselves, maybe have control issues - and so it's like, get as far as you can, and, you know, educate yourself as much as you can. And then when it comes time to I, I really need to figure out how to make this work, that's when I think you got to talk to somebody, hire some help, get some perspective. In the case of like, super simple example of telling a story, let's say somebody's just I need to convince my sales team that the new marketing direction is a good idea. Then it's like, Okay, here's a framework to tell a story that could work for you. That can help you at least get out your ideas. But now, if you're not an experienced speaker, let alone to salespeople who are really good at storytelling and picking up on bullshit, that's when it's a good time to get some help to be like, hey, is this the right way to say this? Here's some ideas and then somebody can help me massage it into a shape that's like, here, this is more aligned to what you want to express in a way that makes sense to the people who are listening to you. Right. I think that applies to so many things like, Sure, try the framework, get the bones down. And then now go get get a get a doctor in here to spark some life.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
What about goals, KPIs? I mean, obviously, there are cases when you need to have them and measure things...
Jocelyn Brady
Right.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
There's always the trend of let's set up those, like really short-term focused KPIs and ignore anything that's two quarters past.
Jocelyn Brady
Right. I mean, it's just like any there's, they're called indicators, right? They're not like guarantees. They're not, you're not necessarily always measuring the right thing. I think people are really quick to give up on stuff that doesn't show some kind of immediate return. So it's being cautious about that, like, what are you really looking to accomplish? And I think, [I was] listening to this, there's this gal who, she won't do anything in her business that doesn't feel like it's going to have a return, like right away. She's just like, that's, that's her, she's real cutthroat about it. I'm not that way at all. I'm like, I don't know, let's see where this leads. This is interesting. I want to see where... I want to make a thing where I'm gonna put my brain hat on and talk about brain stuff and record it and see what happens, right? I'm not going to put measurements around that partially because I'm following my curiosity and because I love the subject matter so much, it's worth it to me, even if it doesn't immediately pay off or maybe if ever. But that's me. And that's my the way I run and I really value creativity and exploration, right?
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
What about a number one trick that would help me trick my brain into not listening to quick and easy advice and focus on things that go beyond KPIs?
Jocelyn Brady
The number one trick? Yeah. There's a, there's a lot of really cool stuff on LinkedIn, really cool people. And then you sometimes find those, like, Okay, I've seen this blueprint, I've seen who does this this way. And it's always sort of the same like that it ended up that. And then I do this. And then here's the one way to do this, that that's like, Hey, man, if that's working for you. Great, but that's like, not sustainable. I think for most people, there's one guy who I really, really respect. He, he was on, he was on a popular show like podcast. And the guy, the host was asking him how he does so much. And he's like, Oh, I don't, I don't need sleep. And he but he's serious. Like he has the 1% genetic thing that like, they're, they're called Super sleepers. And they literally do not need as much sleep as normal for the rest of us. Like they feel 1,000% Ready to go after five hours and actually can feel tired, they sleep more. But it was just like, okay, that's true for you. And that's your message. But there's such a danger of people thinking that, Oh, I need to be like that to be successful. So therefore, I should not be sleeping. And I should be responding to 50 comments in the morning when I wake up, you know?
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Mm hmm.
Jocelyn Brady
Yeah.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
I was looking at the brain tips. And they're all very high level, right? It's not the how to think better. It's like, go get some sleep, or you will die. I'm curious: when you were creating close, like, did you ever feel like it has to be more actionable, it has to be like, implement this in five minutes. And then you can achieve your big, whatever goal.
Jocelyn Brady
No, that never felt genuine. I don't because I know that those could sell more. I know that that could get more like virality or traction. You know, there's formulas that people use to get immediate attention and sell something and create that open loop and then and then put in the clothes and I always felt disgusting to me because it's like there's no, there is no one thing. Yeah, you need to get sleep or you will die. That's that's, you know, um, and to me, that is more fun. So when I started creating those, I didn't have an agenda other than, hey, I have spent most of my career advising or helping other people create their things and tell their stories and I haven't really put any of my stuff out and for For the first time it felt like, oh, wait, I just I can do that I can create something. Nobody is telling me. There's no stakeholders, there's no feedback. There's no like rounds and death by committee of creativity. And that's what it was, it was literally the first time going like, huh, I like brains. Like words, Oh, I like this book, words can change your brain cool. I'm gonna make a video, and I'm gonna make it today, I'm gonna put it out, I'm gonna challenge myself to make like a two minute video, and just release it today. I didn't know anything. I didn't know how to edit. I didn't know how to do anything. And that's, that's what I did. And I was like, Oh, that felt really good. I feel like I'm learning something, I'm like getting better with my skills. It could only go up from here because it was very rough. And then it became a really fun - for me - challenge of just like, Okay, I'm going to research a topic, and do as best I can to do it justice. And just, I didn't know what it would be about. Yeah, it'd be like, Well, this one's going to be about play, or this one's going to be about sleep, or this one's going to be about chaos. And I wasn't sure where it was going to go. So I would follow the material to see. It'd be like, okay, this one's into, like, chaos is super interesting, because I was like, wow, there's this whole world of chaos theory that I have no idea about, and fractals and all this and realizing like, I won't understand this in two weeks. But here's something cool about it. And here's, you know, kind of ways to navigate between chaos. And that was kind of the point in all of them is like, some things are more clear: sleep or die. Others are like, Hey, you have to invite a certain amount of, you have to figure out what works for you, the end. Do you know? Like that, that, to me was rewarding. And it did actually lead to work. I mean, I got hired for coaching and for consultancy, because of those things. And I think it's because it was genuine to me, and I wasn't hard closing anything really.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
I'm tempted to ask: Do you think it's because of the type of people you attract? Or do you think it's more just like finally something that just is fun and brings people joy? Because nobody expected Darth Vader in that video, for example?
Jocelyn Brady
Don't know, probably a combination. There's some people who approached me that I'd never met before. Oh, that was a big snore, buddy. Um, and yeah, so I think I'm, like anybody if we're really being ourselves, we're not going to be for everyone. Right? It's like, there's definitely people who are not going to be attracted to that kind of level of weird or playful, or why doesn't she just have the answers? And that's not my audience. But people who like curiosity and exploration and are like, Oh, how can I enjoy my brain a little better, and create stuff that I'm proud of without, you know, burning out or being super certain all the time? Yeah, so I think it's combination of I think some people find that extremely refreshing. I certainly do. I look for content that is like, that is refreshing that makes me laugh that's not trying to push a product all the time, or like push something like, hard sell. This is the way to do it. It's like I like curious people who are exploring things and, and willing to make mistakes and willing to learn and willing to admit that and say, like, oh, that doesn't work out. If you're not having fun with it, it'll show so many things. If you are not finding the joy in something, you can feel it. And if somebody wrote, like really dry content and really dry, even grant funding, even lawyers, the lawyer I work with is hilarious. And like a lot of it's just like, yes, yes, traditional, traditional, like this is what you expect, then every now and then he'll throw in a line that's like, just makes me laugh like that we won't be nobody will be responsible for whatever you proverbially stub your toe in. Can't remember the whole line. It's just like I've never ... he was having fun with language. And it's the same with stories, it's like, I think it's I'm so fascinated that we have we are storytelling creatures. We're born into it. Our brains can't help it. But tell stories. They can't help but make them up all the time. Even when we're sleeping constantly. daydreaming even when we're not aware of what is happening all the time, crazy, and how much power people have over us through the stories that they tell them people with the, you know, the biggest stages, the loudest storytellers have, do change minds. And for better or worse, right, so it's like, if we can understand the power of that, and how to recognize what is happening in storytelling, how that's happening to us, and also how to create stories. So like the, hopefully the good eggs can take over.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Okay, this is going to be the most exciting part of the interview, at least for me. Because with all of those conversations about more efficiency, and more content, produced with AI, and not having to deal with pesky humans to finally, launch your unstoppable content machine, it just seems like something is missing. Which is not to say that its sole AI is fold. It has been missing for a while before that. And what I'm talking about is the sense of reading something that was produced by a person trying to create something meaningful by a person that is experiencing the flow, or dare I say, sometimes they do enjoy. And, yes, I understand that. It's easier said than done. And for startups, especially the stakes are so much higher. It's your thing, it's your identity, it's your business on the line. So taking creative risks and chasing joy, instead of relying on tried and true, use those formula get results tips, is probably incredibly scary. And I think that this is exactly where things go wrong. Go first, those 10 specific steps might not work for you. And second, again, reducing your complex environment to a list of 10 steps that work for somebody else does not mean that they will work for you. The economy changes, you may be in a different industry, your audience may be allergic to marketing, hi developers everywhere. So expecting those steps to work in every context for every business as perhaps even riskier than trying to come up with something new. And dare I say joyful?
Is there still place for joy? In, you know, commercial goals first environments?
Jocelyn Brady
1,000% Yeah, I think, really, all the more so I think got Yeah, cuz again, it's like, especially if you are struggling to make something and if you can tap into that joy, just you can get into flow state you can have, you can enjoy it so much more, and it can show in the language choice, and you know, how people experience it. Because if you know, you know, it's like, if you're super bored, and you hate something, you're just like, by this stuff, now you can feel it as the person and as the audience, like the emotions are contagious, even through the screen. But in a commercial sense, it's like doing do a fair amount of keynote speaking. And there is a goal, there's always a goal, right? It's like, I want to for example, if I want to convince people that play is a good idea in in creating behavior change than that, then I know that that's my outcome. I want people to at least be curious about play. And it might not get to everybody, but my goal is like get to the get people curious, as many people as possible. If I get one that's success. It's not gonna feel like success with if only one person is clapping, but it is still success. And and then it's like, okay, well, I've got however long that 15 minutes 30 minutes an hour. So now I I have this much time to create some kind of narrative framework that leads that creates that transformation. Right? And then if I am having fun talking about this on stage, they're gonna they're gonna feel that but if I'm just like, I hate this. Everyone should just do this. Just listen to me. Play is good. Go play. You know, like Look, but again, that feeling of joy, same if you're, if you're just like, you just want to sell, I'm just getting people, I just want people to buy this cup of coffee, great. All right, why not have some fun with it, why not be the most fun cup of coffee seller out there, make it an enjoyable experience for yourself. And for the person who ultimately wants this thing, we we both want the same thing you want to sell it and I want to buy it, right, so make it if you can make it the most joyful experience or even meaningful experience. And that's going to be the thing that I want to go back to again and again.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
But on this road, from me having joy with my product, to this person enjoying the product, there are so many steps in between, starting with reviews and ending with the fear of failing, which is like this collective for everybody. So the follow up questions kind of have this, like, can I balance this desire to have joy and the fear of that final product falling flat?
Jocelyn Brady
Yeah, I mean, if you're only guided by the fear, sort of what we're talking about earlier, it's like that survival mode. We don't tend to make the most thoughtful decisions in that space of reactivity from fear. And both things can be true, you can be afraid that something isn't going to work out. And also go like I'm going to try to enjoy this moment, this experience and this experimentation as much as possible so that this fear doesn't completely overwhelming get in the way of learning and creating.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Sounds like almost like taking a step back. Like being aware of the feeling but not being overwhelmed. That's hard. This does not sound fun.
Jocelyn Brady
Yeah. It's funny, we talk about things like joy and fun and play. And I think the reason one of the reasons I'm so such a strong advocate is because we, we tend to have the negativity bias. And we tend to have a lot of negative feelings and to see things just like as a person in the world, right? It's all the more reason to counterbalance that, with these things that nourish us that lead to brain growth and more, like neuroplasticity, and changes and help us make us more resilient against pain against neurodegenerative disease, let alone be more creative in the moment. And that practice of emotional granularity, there's some really cool research around that, which is just just means being more having more facility in accurately naming the feelings that we're experiencing. And that's kind of it like you don't, you don't just going like, Oh, I'm feeling really, what is this word, you can use the feelings wheel and stuff and just be like, hmm, reticent, I am fearful, I have worried I have anxiety. But I'm also excited and curious. And just that you don't need to chase any of these feelings away. It's just bringing them to your awareness, which can have a really calming effect to which can make you more focused. So you could be more productive.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Can creativity be contagious?
Jocelyn Brady
Yeah, I'd like to think so. Whoo. That's a cool question and way of looking at it. Yeah, I think you know, when you're around really creative when when it feels like you have permission to just be super creative. I think that brings out that in us, especially from if you look at kids who are like, what, which room? Are you going to choose the boring one with all the desks where you sit in a row under fluorescent garbage lighting, where the teacher is just lecturing you from the front of the room? Are you going to go into the like, cave of exploration where there's all the books you want and all the toys and climbing gear - obvious choice?
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Yes. And I'm trying to, like translate it into an adult situation.
Jocelyn Brady
Right? Yeah. Well, we get it gets hammered out of us. All right. It's like creativity is innate to our species. And these two scientists were tasked by NASA to to create a measure of creativity. Because you know, NASA being NASA wants to make sure its astronauts are, can get themselves out. I'm tricky situations and stuff. So they did. And they, it was basically looking at just one mode of creativity, which is divergent thinking that creativity can be a hard thing to measure. So that's one way that people have standardized. And they looked at kids and I forgot how many 1700s I don't know quite a large number. And when they were young, like three to five years old, or five to six years old, they were 98%, ranking, creative genius, according to this, and then you watch it over time. So it goes like 98%, they're like five and six. And then oh, the follow up at 12 and the follow up 70 In the follow up, but by the time they're, like 23 or so 2%. And the theory is, well, when you put kids into these rigid, structured environments that stifle creativity, and that tell them, there's one way to think there's past and there's fail, and that's it the binary system, right? You are you're going to college or you're flunky failure. Like these kinds of messages, you're drilling out our natural creativity. So by the time we're adults, we're it's like we're scared of it. Because that's like I've been, I've been taught my whole life that isn't that No, don't go into that cave, like stay the straight line, right? guy like this, like you need permission. Go be go be around creative people and feel that contagion.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
And then bring it back to the review committee.
Jocelyn Brady
Okay, ease them into it. Or spike their drinks.
Ekaterina (Sam) Howard
Well, let's not do that. Thank you for listening, and hope that this episode has encouraged you to first of all, check out Justin's website and her tiny tips. And I hope, also consider changing your approach to growth and experimentation. Instead of playing to win, and not exploring scarier, riskier approaches to growth and GTM. Why not try to play some riskier bets and see, if not following that tried and true, do this not that frameworks may lead to better results. It may not. But then again, all this exploring may help you find a new approach that others haven't noticed yet.
Speaking of exploring, if you are a copy before design forever and ever person like myself, you may have been seriously underestimating the importance of branding. Join me for the next podcast episode for a conversation that just might change your mind. I know it changed mine. We’ll also be talking about the right way and the wrong way to stand out, in terms of branding, so don’t miss it. See you then!
Oh, and one more thing. Don't forget to join my newsletter, The Lightbulb Moment Club, to be notified about new episodes, and get bonus content. In this case, it's a deep-ish dive into the myth of a visionary founder who knows it all and doesn't need user research consultants, or his own team's expertise to make the right call, every time. So sign up for the newsletter to find out what’s going on there.
Thank you for listening.